POLITICS: Jeff Flake vs. Mike Pence

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura) 01/03/2018 at 10:09 • Filed to: None

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“...one viewing the nation’s disquiet as a problem to be solved, the other viewing it as a political advantage to be exploited.”

O.C. respects Jeff Flake for standing up to the cretin Donald Trump. When is the last time we saw a politician stand up for decency and civility even though it cost him his office? I would consider voting for Flake because of this, though the person I truly want to vote for is Goofy Elizabeth Warren.

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OPPOsaurus WRX > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 10:49

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yea.... Warren seems like a POS.

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 10:52

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Fuck both of them.

Textured Soy Protein > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 11:05

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Far too many members of the GOP establishment were willing to hold their nose and look the other way at Trump’s many personality defects because they were salivating at the chance to have a Republican president who would sign their shitty policy ideas into law.

Flake is one of the few of them who wasn’t willing to hold his nose in the name of passing his equally shitty policy ideas. So he gets a small amount of credit from me for that, but it doesn’t make his policy ideas any less shitty.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat 01/03/2018 at 11:06

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Why mince your words and not tell us how you really feel?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Textured Soy Protein 01/03/2018 at 11:09

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I think you and I are on the same page. I would argue that your disagreement or mine with a policy position doesn’t necessary make the policy shitty, just we don’t agree with it.

Textured Soy Protein > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 11:19

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Not every policy idea I disagree with is shitty, but plenty of them are.

When it comes to politics, and choosing a candidate, personality is secondary to me. Politicians enact laws. A politician like Jeff Flake behaving in a way that one would expect a decent human being to behave, in spite of the majority of his party not behaving that way, does not excuse him from being very bad on policy.

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 11:21

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They both suck; simple as that. Both are products of low voter turnout, lying to an aging population and sensationalism in the media. Neither is truly conservative nor has enough of a spine to really stand up for what they think if someone dares push them only a little. They are grown children that only know how to complain and shit the bed.

Conservatism in the US used to be the grownup choice; the responsibility laden folk, the patriotic (not nationalistic, big difference) men and women that wanted to turn true to what the nation’s principles were.

Now conservatism in the US is the choice of angry, mediocre, egotistical, lazy people that see everything as a threat to themselves. They group for strength in numbers but they obviously distrust each other and only want to see others fail as they thrive. Trump didn’t make conservatism this way; it was people like Sarah Pailin and the tea party movement.

But it also was the fact that the nation is becoming more and more separated by classism and inequality, which makes the angry and mediocre, the egotistical and lazy feel threatened. They claim to be the best of the people but can’t fucking adapt to a new economy, even dare to be open minded, and its a vicious cycle; you lie to them, they vote for you, you automate their jobs and cut funding for education; you make them angrier at immigrants or something, and then you lie to them again.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Textured Soy Protein 01/03/2018 at 11:28

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So by your reasoning, if you aligned with Donald Trump’s politics, you’d put up with his personality? And I think it’s risky to equate political policy with an expectation of human behavior.

I do take your point, though.

People need to have some of their own skin in the game and only the Rs, with their “entitlement reform,” are going to take that one on. Equity among various humans WRT natural resources, read: immigration, is something only the Ds will take on and defend, so for me, as I stated in my original post, and those being bedrock principles of mine, Warren or Flake would be equally palatable choices for me, given that they are among the few politicians who appear to be decent, integral people.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat 01/03/2018 at 11:38

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Well said, though you left out white in your list(s) of descriptors of this group. I personally see Jeff Flake as closer to the the shape of American conservatism as you’ve described it. In short: folks need to have some of their own skin in the game and entitlements as they are currently structured do not accomplish that. At the same time, I oppose the environmental caste system as it currently exists, with castes defined by what line on a political map one happens to be born within. Why can’t a person come to this country and work — and pay taxes — to provide a living for his or her her family? Why does citizenship have to be brought into it when working and living are what’s needed. The person willing to come here and work and pay taxes has plenty of his own skin in the game already. And the Liberals lie about plenty and have the media to prop them up. So if I’m objective, and as I stated initially, Jeff Flake or Goofy Elizabeth Warren would be equally palatable choices for me.

Textured Soy Protein > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 11:40

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I put personality second behind policy, but I still pay attention to it. Most politicians’ behavior mostly falls within expected norms of politician behavior. Personality becomes a factor for me when:

I’m voting in a Democratic primary, choosing between candidates who mostly agree about policy, and I’m thinking about which one will be more likely to attract more voters in a general election.

A politician’s behavior doesn’t fall within the expected norms of politician behavior.

Even if I agreed with his very bad policy ideas, 45's behavior certainly falls within #2.

As for the content of your ideas about policy, I would argue that the R’s are not so much interested in putting people’s skin in the game as they fundamentally object to the government doing things, and spending money to do things, especially when poor people benefit from the doing of those things or spending of that money.

It would be one thing if they were advancing policy to reduce corruption in entitlement programs, but their “entitlement reforms” are budget cuts, and their talk of personal responsibility is a smokescreen for those budget cuts.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat 01/03/2018 at 11:41

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I think you’re much smarter at this all than I am, so I value your input.

Isn’t nationalism really a form of identity politics?

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 11:48

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I just remember when I was skiing in Wyoming a couple of years ago (I think it was right after the 2014 mid terms) and I happened to sit next to a local guy that was sort of disinterested; he thought that Republicans and Democrats were, on equal parts, corrupt and lazy, and that he as a store owner never actually saw times harder or easier with either. Albeit he was white and local; so he had the privilege...

It was a weird trip, I swear that everything, and everyone, was white, pale, and cold as hell.

Anyway, I think Warren is a better choice than Flake, noting that both have ideological hypocrisies. However I feel that Warren has more of an objective approach to economics and tries to de-link it in the future from gender or race, albeit without ignoring the legacy factors that cause some discrepancies amongst gender and race.

Spanfeller is a twat > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 11:57

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A friend of mine (history student) and I were discussing it, she concluded that a nation can be patriotic of its institutions, of its history, and of its people as long as it doesn’t become nativist and protectionist, because then it stops being patriotism and becomes nationalism.

Nationalism can be best described as a simulacra of patriotism; it celebrates something that did not exist in the hopes that it can justify creating it in the future. It is dangerous because it preaches to, not be the best self, but to think you’re the best as you think you are in the moment.

Thus, we discussed, Mexico is very nationalistic and it’s dangerous. We’re not proud of having a good soccer team, we’re PROUD OF HAVING THE BEST FUCKING TEAM AND ROBBEN IS AN ASSHOLE LIAR AND EVERYONE IS AGAINTS US BECAUSE WE’RE THE BEST.

The US is becoming nationalistic, and as we see it is dangerous.

But I doubt I’m better at politics than you are, In reality I think everyone has their own ideals and biases, I just think that its important to listen to everyone so that we don’t live in a bubble, and I do try to keep my ears open, thus my (hopefully) varied responses.

nermal > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 12:07

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This reads like the story of two high school buddies that grew up together, then went to the same college, but one ended up founding a startup and the other ended up dropping out of school and working as a used car salesman.

Pence is “only” 58. If Trump wins a 2nd term, and continues the success that he’s had, that may set Pence up for 2024 and 2028, if he wants it.

I think Trump is going to start winning over a lot of the political middle over the course of the next year. He’s never going to win the far-left or the permanently offended, but he doesn’t need them. That will bode well for Pence if he plays his cards right.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Spanfeller is a twat 01/03/2018 at 12:23

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You’ve said good things in both of these posts and I have to leave the computer.

...and I do try to keep my ears open, thus my (hopefully) varied responses...

Same. TTYL.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal 01/03/2018 at 12:35

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I’d say one founded a startup and one went to work on Wall Street, because neither, in my mind, amount to used car salesmen.

If I’m honest, if I have my Oppos all straight, and not trying to be a troll, I have to take your remark with a grain of salt because of how much crowing you’ve done here about making money and I can’t relate to that position, since I don’t have any. My views are based upon certain bedrock principles which, in current politically binary terms, are mutually exclusive. Hence, both Jeff Flake and Elizabeth Warren can appeal to me at the same time, though one of the Oppos has pointed out to me some deep character flaws on the part of Goofy Elizabeth that need to be disqualifiers.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal 01/03/2018 at 12:40

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You know, it’s not the case that I don’t have any money. I have a lot more than some folks. But unlike some, I have to borrow against my home’s equity to pay for my daughters’ school and weddings and I earn a little too much to qualify for ACA subsidies and I’m part of that middle class getting wrung out to make the 1% richer. The president says I’ll get a $1,600 tax break — on average — while he’ll spend more than that on dinner tonight.

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-motion > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 13:20

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I’m so greatful someone in the GOP is standing up to Trump. When its democrats speaking up, it always has a political agenda connected. But, with Flake, for once someone stood up to the loon on a solely moral ground.

And I respect the f*ck outta that.

jkm7680 > Spanfeller is a twat 01/03/2018 at 13:31

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“Now conservatism in the US is the choice of angry* , mediocre, egotistical, lazy people.” Same could be said about liberalism.

“Fuck both of them.”(There’s that angry* you were talking about earlier. )

I’ve voted for only Republicans my entire life and I don’t consider myself any of those descriptors.

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > jkm7680 01/03/2018 at 13:38

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Remarkably vague statement.



Spanfeller is a twat > jkm7680 01/03/2018 at 13:53

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I think liberalism (albeit, the widespread kind) in the US is infected by guilt and arrogance.

And I find myself in a bit of a divide here, I went to an American school in Mexico, which gives me a weird sense of belonging to both cultures, I was taught by Americans in school but by Mexicans back home.

And it wasn’t a distilled-liberal only teacher group, no... My history books claimed the civil war was about states rights and tried to put the Confederacy in good light.

I think that, for a start, most people in the US are raised to be racist (call it Levittown-like neighborhoods, segregated schools, racist jokes, a painfully racist past), because that’s how society over there is; in the same notion that here in Mexico we’re raised to be classist (Although classism has an important relation to racism in Mexico, it is not the main driver of division.) because that’s how it is here.

The bigger fight our societies must have is to stop racism (classism here) because it is senseless and it stems from stupidity.

What I see a lot in the mainstream liberalism of the US is a lot of guilt, in the shape of most (white) supporters not only being painfully aware of their privilege but sometimes even proud of being aware and “fighting it.”

In quotes because they don’t really fight their privilege as much as try to be sensible to the lack of privilege of others. Thus the guilt.

And the arrogance comes from the polls, if you’re a liberal chances are you make more money, chances are you’re younger, chances are you’re living in a nice, safe city, chances are you’re college educated. Which sparks the real issue with elitism;

Not having a college degree doesn’t make you dumber, being poorer doesn’t make you dumber, but if an entire group throws shade at you and puts you away into a box where maybe you don’t fit but you’re forced to be there... well... what will you think of that group?

I simply think that we can’t let ourselves become separated because then we truly believe that we’re each other’s enemy, and that means that liberals need to get off their high horse and conservatives need to stop thinking of themselves as “the silent majority” because both positions stem from an uncanny arrogance.

jkm7680 > Spanfeller is a twat 01/03/2018 at 14:05

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Have you lived in the United States before?

Most Americans are absolutely not raised “racist” as you say. There are class divisions, which are essentially only economic divides that mainly exist in major metropolitan areas. No matter what race you are, if you try hard enough to succeed, it’ll happen eventually.

I’ve spent my entire life living in the southern United States. Mainly in rural areas in Louisiana Georgia and Mississippi. The only place I have witnessed true racism was in Northern Virginia, Maryland and DC. All in liberal majority, urban areas. It’s not just “how society is.” Racist people just exist, it has little to do with how you are raised. From the sound of it, you seem to think that everything is segregated still and that minorities cannot succeed in the United States. Which is farthest from the truth.

In my opinion, a good amount of mainstream liberals see themselves as heroes and are extremely arrogant and smug and think they’re better people than people living in rural areas and people that don’t have an arts degree they can’t do anything with.

I also can’t really relate your response to my response.

Spanfeller is a twat > jkm7680 01/03/2018 at 14:27

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Up until last year I traveled to the US about four or five times a year (I spent 10% of my years there on many years); my brother has a rare medical condition and his specialist doctor lives there. Additionally a lot of friends and family live across the country, again, I studied in an American school and I am friends with many Americans of many walks of life, most of the media (if not all) that I consume is American, most of what I read stems from American websites and authors.

Perhaps it is a symptom of living in a country that is in some ways very different to the US that I notices such divisions amongst yourselves, in the same manner that you’d probably identify things I wouldn’t identify here.

and racism is absolutely linked to how you’re raised; no one is born racist, we’re raised to think (or see) the world in a way and changing as adults is very difficult.

We can bicker all day about it; but in the end neither has shown numbers, and statistically minorities are overwhelmed; access to worse schools, worse housing, police officers tend to be harsher on them, and even worse fucking water in some places. Plus,we can’t really measure what “Trying hard” is and if someone is or isn’t doing it.

Fucking water man!

But yes, these are more socioeconomic factors as you say, but to even sustain the notion that economics isn’t linked to race because of legacy systems (like were Levittown like neighborhood that I showed) would underrepresent the truth. Yes, you can succeed anywhere on earth really and discrimination isn’t going to stop you, but climbing a mountain becomes substantially harder if your boots are broken.

and to address the “Liberals see themselves as heroes” argument; anyone that is willing to defend a party over the wellbeing of a country is arrogant and smug by nature. I don’t want to call myself either conservative or liberal because I think both concepts have certain value, what I believe must be done is fucking compromise and a return to talking shit out rather than being partisan hacks; something both sides of the aisle in the US have done and something that is a given here in Mexico.

jkm7680 > Spanfeller is a twat 01/03/2018 at 14:37

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I mean, you can’t really provide a social commentary on a country you don’t live in and haven’t experienced firsthand. American media is biased either way and dishonest. Just watching the news doesn’t give you an actual perspective of race relations. Mass media focuses on negativity and what’s wrong with the world. In that same way, I wouldn’t have anything to say about Mexico, because I haven’t been truly immersed in Mexico. Which means learning by experience, time spent in a country doesn’t amount for time spent watching a country on the news.

I’ll say it again, in the United States, anybody can succeed if they try hard enough and are willing to make sacrifices. My ex-girlfriend lived in one of the poorest, most violent slums in the United States and was able to emerge from the cycle of poverty by bettering herself and resisting the same things that kept her family in poverty in the past. This isn’t the 1950's anymore.

Spanfeller is a twat > jkm7680 01/03/2018 at 15:22

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With all do respect I do consider myself immersed enough in American culture to commentate on it. I pledged allegiance to the flag many a times my entire childhood, my civics projects were about Reagan, or Bush, or Carter, the portraits of your presidents hanged in the halls of my school, my colleagues talked about college in California, and my teachers, reminiscent of winter trips back home, told us how their families spent Christmas. I watched Sunday cartoons with bowls of sugary cereal and the Fresh Prince of Bell Air on Friday nights.

I have driven a Cabriolet Mustang across California’s route one, I’ve been to the Florida everglades, I’ve eaten at In-and-out, I’ve been harassed by cops in Utah, I’ve been treated like family at a bed and breakfast. I’ve seen Harley drivers wave the flag as they sped past us in an interstate highway crossing the West. I’ve been to New York, I’ve used the subway,I’ve been to the Niagara Falls. I’ve seen the wide boulevards of Las Vegas. I have seen hip hop and country music blast from speakers at many concerts. I’ve been to many of your museums and national parks, all the way from LACMA to MOMA, and from Yellowstone to the Grand Canyons.

A country is not an experience that comes only with time or that you experience in abundance every day. Yeah, maybe I don’t know as much as the US as you do, but I sure as hell have firsthand experience.

And by all means comment on my country! I’m not wanting to pretend that only Mexicans know enough about Mexico to comment, on the contrary, the smartest and most revealing coments I’ve heard about my country came mostly from foreigners. Because foreigners have something that is intrinsically harder us locals to have and that’s perspective. For instance, I once had a teacher from Texas that fucking marveled at our metro system, while most of us spend all day talking about how shitty it is and how often it flooded, to which he’d say that at least we have one. But then he’d also complain that most people tried to abuse of his “foreign-ness”. by overcharging in museums or offering worse services at the DMV.

But have you thought about what you just typed?

“if they try hard enough and are willing to make sacrifices.”

Think about what that means; does it mean that someone will have to make more sacrifices and try significantly harder than someone else because of shit they can’t control?

No one wants equality, but we all want equal opportunity, and equal opportunity means that public education shouldn’t suck, it means that you shouldn’t be subjected to the idea that you need to try harder because you’re from a certain background.

Is trying harder also having to stomach shit like sexist jokes at the office?, or being followed everywhere by store clerks because they think you’re some sort of mugger?

Its easy for us to say it, but put yourself in the feet of someone that is constantly told they need to try harder and sacrifice more, that stuff eats away at you! Some people are born with a certain security that is hard to understand, its hard to imagine anyone living without it, and it makes us unwilling to see distress in others because we think they are crybabies, or lazy.

Life is not as simple as saying anyone can succeed in the US-full stop. In all fairness I doubt most people anywhere succeed or fail, I think most people sort-of get what they want, and we can’t pretend that there isn’t an spectrum; that a person either succeeds or doesn’t. Like Nina said in The Americans:

“You Americans tend to see everything as black or white, were in reality its all grey”

jkm7680 > Spanfeller is a twat 01/03/2018 at 15:30

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Living in a country is different than visiting a country. I will say it again, you have to actually live here to gather enough knowledge to judge it so much. You haven’t lived in the United States to see deeper than just what you can observe from the surface. You can’t say mostly everybody here who is raised here is raised racist. You still haven’t actually lived here.

“Think about what that means; does it mean that someone will have to make more sacrifices and try significantly harder than someone else because of shit they can’t control?”

Yep exactly. Poor people come in all colors and forms and some people have to try harder than others to be successful.

Sexist jokes and all that shit don’t matter where I live. People have thick enough skin to not constantly get triggered and need to retreat to their safe spaces. Mississippi has the 2nd largest African American population in the country and they still have the confederate flag in their state flag. Why? Because nobody really cares about that kind of thing.

Spanfeller is a twat > jkm7680 01/03/2018 at 15:36

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Well, I think we’ll just agree to disagree.

jkm7680 > Spanfeller is a twat 01/03/2018 at 15:39

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Sounds good, hah.

nermal > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 17:26

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I don’t know that I’ve exactly been crowing about money, although I generally share the philosophy that how much you spend in relation to what you make is more important than how much you make. I also do not believe in loyalty to a company if you have a more lucrative employment option.

That said, I am definitely pro-Trump, either in favor of most of the things that he does or just not flabbergasted by his gaffs. I also firmly believe that more of the country is in a better position today than they were a year ago, and that trend will continue. More people are “Winning”, and it’s a great thing.

Perhaps my choice of career examples in the comparison to Pence and Flake were off, but the point was that they went in two different directions. One of them will serve at least one and maybe two terms as VP, with a potential run for President if he wants it. The other, not so much.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal 01/03/2018 at 18:08

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I tried to choose my words carefully because I wanted to respect the differences and not start anything that turned unpleasant. I respect what you’ve said here and perhaps crowing was not a good word choice on my part.

With regard to pro-Trumpness, I find him too personally objectionable to ever be for him, though I am very much open to something constructive coming of him, which shocks my liberal family members. As for his gaffs, they are inexcusable and humiliating, but being flabbergasted by them is their primary purpose and I refuse to invest any emotional energy in such a reaction.

More people making more money still leaves the same lot at the bottom and while I do not see handing out taxpayer money to them as the solution, ignoring them and keeping them down through (regressive?) entitlement programs is no solution either.

And as for serving as VP or as a senator, Flake has shown that there are some things more important to him and I respect him for that. Donald Trump has changed everything and it’s more constructive to figure out how to live with it whilst trying to figure out what to do about it, which I seriously doubt the DNC is up to doing.

And what an interesting turn today re: Bannon. What do you make of that?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Herr Quattro - Has a 4-motion 01/03/2018 at 18:10

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That’s where I am, though I would put it slightly differently. Maybe Jeff Flake is too nice and that’s not what people want right now. Perhaps Mitt Romney will get himself elected senator from Utah and continue as a thorn in President Trump’s side and be a force for civility and moderation. Romney and Flake are both Mormons and I am surprised that President Trump has not chosen to do any hating on that front.

nermal > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 18:26

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From a philosophical perspective, I think that there will always be poor and rich people, but that’s a good thing. There’s the argument that a lot of the jobs that have been created in the past year are “low wage”, but I don’t think that’s bad. A $10 / hr job is better than no job, and can lead to a higher earning one. There are people working $10 / hr jobs that will become millionaires some day, but it won’t be tomorrow.

Bannon is in the same boat as everybody else that is no longer part of Trump’s administration, and I’d imagine the same goes for people that worked for him in his private companies. You’re either on Trump’s team, or you’re not. When you’re not on the team, you’re worthless, and he’s over it very quickly. You won’t hear him waxing poetic about his previous staff, and how great they were to work with, because they don’t matter any more. Everybody currently on the team is great and yuuuuge and part of the best team ever created, trust me they’re fantastic.

That attitude makes working for him stressful and sometimes unpleasant. You’ll be better off going with him rather than going against him, however.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal 01/03/2018 at 18:31

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Would you consider sending me an email? oliphant.chuckerbutty@gmail.com

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-motion > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 18:44

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If Romney tries to run in Utah, and speak out against Trump, he will lose the primary. Utah voted for Trump, and as Flakes just found out, going against the GOP war on human decency and, to a very limited degree, against the GOP attack on the very pillars of human rights, is grounds to be ostracized.

Essentially, the GOP is turning into a “Trumps way or the highway”

It just freaks me out how blind people are to what Trump is doing. Die-hard Trump supporters laud the fact that he is going against the grain of what a normal politician does. But he is de-legitimatizing the media, isolating us from our allies, and using ‘what-about-isms” to de-legitimatize claims made against him. And he also legitimatizes complete lies, to garner support for his war on the left. 

And overall widen the political divide even further, and by being extremist himself, he is radicalizing his biggest supporters into nationalistic extremists, pushing moderate democrats towards extremism to counter what is essentially an agenda to destroy them and silence their opinion. And this leads moderate republicans to lean farther right to protect their opinion from the Alt-Left. So in the end, either Fuck All gets done, or only the most extreme bills make it through a widely divided senate.

His tweets about North Korea are absolutely insane, and yet republicans get a kick out of the ‘snowflakes’ freaking the f*ck out. Possibly because the lefts aren’t as arrogant enough to think that the US is invincible from attack.

The Trump administration will leave a stain on our nation for potentially decades- especially as more and more politicians (particularly on the GOP side), try to emulate him.

average user > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/03/2018 at 18:45

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Not standing up against him so much when it comes to the tax bill however. If he really oppose his agenda at least he should act like it.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Herr Quattro - Has a 4-motion 01/03/2018 at 19:12

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My hope is that since Utah is not Arizona, and since the Romney name is a trusted name in moderation, Utahns will like Romney’s moderate brand and elect him, should he decide to run for the senate.

In my opinion, what needs to follow Trump in the lead-up to 2020 is a true independent contender. Maybe even two of them. And DNC will be torn because they beat Bernie down and look where it got them.

I am not very knowledgeable about politics, but I know what my bedrock principles are and in today’s binary politics, they are mutually exclusive.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > average user 01/03/2018 at 19:15

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There are discrete aspects of Trump’s agenda as I see it and Flake is only standing up to certain aspects.

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-motion > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/04/2018 at 00:45

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As sad as it makes me, the fact that in 2016, when faced with 2 terrible options we still wound up with the 2 worse canidates. And that’s the biggest issue.

Politicians on both sides are (in my limited opinion) gradually catering to the more extreme side of their party, because those are the people who guarantee votes in the Primary.

Not to mention, their views still represent the general gist of what their voters want.

For example, a moderate democrat who wants stronger gun control, will elect the hardline Democrat who wants to get rid of all guns, as “getting rid of guns” is still gun control, even if it exceeds what they believe is necessary.

And vice Versa. Except, the biggest issue falls on the republican voting base. The Republican base is (mostly) made up of older white people. Most of the republican policy seems to ve tradionalist, while the democrats appeal to the progressive youth.

So the politics are essentially becoming a Cold War between the old and new, and with the World almost undergoing a “new” Enlightenment, the war is only getting more and more heated.

And the whole thing is muddied by double standards on both sides, and the each side using the others hypocrisy to discount and down play their own actions.

I remember seeing a clip about a piece on the Russian probe, and the Fox News (I watch Fox and CNN- figured cross referencing both sides gives me the best point of view). So many republicans seem to excuse it with “Well Hillary did it!”

Except, you want to jail Hillary- does that mean you want to jail trump?

And this is not just one sided. Both sides are wrought with pathetic amounts of double standards.

Trump feeds off these so called “double standards” to discredit claims against him by pointing out that the other sides point is well- pointless.

Overall I’m disappointed that Flakes is leaving. I hail from PA, and my (very moderate) republican representative is retiring at the end of his current term. Both of which deeply boths me because the moderate GOP refuses to stand up to the extremeist (albeit, my representative is not being forced out, and is wildly popular in our district. He could run as an independent and he would win.)

Idk. Overall, I’m hoping the Russian Provenblows up and trump does get impeached. He doesn’t hve to put my goddamn life down on the line to make a nuclear threat to a madman in Asia.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Herr Quattro - Has a 4-motion 01/04/2018 at 01:16

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I’m with you every word EXCEPT: I won’t watch one second of any cable news of any flavor. I read Wall Street Journal and New York Times for my balance, plus Político and for a touch of seasoning, Business Insider. Político sends a daily electronic gazette that aggregated stories from around the Web and picks up some of the WaPo headlines and Vanity Fair. With all of that I’m not expert, but I have a decent sense of what people are talking about.

Trump is a genius at being a bully.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat 01/04/2018 at 10:58

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This is beautifully written.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 01/04/2018 at 11:06

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The argument that “anyone can make it” that you received is amusing, as socio-economic mobility has faltered in the US, and now trails many other nations. Even more amusing when it comes from someone in one of the most economically broke and regressive(both socially and economically) states.

The south will not rise again.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > nermal 01/04/2018 at 11:10

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As much as I hate to say it, I’m afraid you might be right. Workers more often than not stick with a boss they hate if their paychecks go up. I’m guessing plenty of voters who genuinely hate Trump will accept the status quo when they see their take-home pay going up. Lots of people are criticizing the $1000 bonuses that many big companies are giving their employees after the tax bill passed, but this is real money going into the hands of people that can use it, and right after Christmas when they can probably use it the most.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Herr Quattro - Has a 4-motion 01/04/2018 at 11:17

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72% of Utah voters were with Romney in 2012.

Just 46% percent were with Trump in 2016, with 21% voting for the spoiler McMullin. I don’t see that there’s much love for Trump in Utah; I’d guess most votes he got were cast in opposition to Clinton.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Textured Soy Protein 01/04/2018 at 11:22

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They got their justice on the Supreme Court, and they got their tax plan, but I do wonder if these victories were taken in trade for the entire future of the party...

nermal > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/04/2018 at 17:16

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According to my math, we’re closing in on a million employees getting $1k bonuses out of the blue thanks to the tax cuts, in addition to the extra amount that they will get in their paychecks starting next month from reduced taxes. Add to that the others working at large companies that got raises, and you’ve got a lot of people that are not only better off, but they’re better off because of the Trump administration.

I think that people will be able to put aside past statements about pussy-grabbing and Twitter bullying, as long as they are seeing real quality of life improvements that they can attribute to Trump.

Higher income people in NY and CA are going to get boned by the $10k cap on writing off tax payments, but they were never going to vote for Trump anyways. Same goes for those living in $500k+ houses.

nermal > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/04/2018 at 17:17

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Yep, sent.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > nermal 01/04/2018 at 17:57

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I heard CA is considering making donations to the state a 1-to-1 rebate off state taxes, in order to circumvent the change...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/04/2018 at 18:54

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I am curious to see how far they get with that.

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-motion > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/04/2018 at 18:57

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I do occasionally read Washington Post and New York Times.

I also read BBC. They seem to have the most unbiased view of it. Tho, I’ve noticed that it has changed since Brexit.

Other place I watch is John Oliver on YouTube. That’s where I gained much of my knowledge and opinion on what-about-isms. If you haven’t watched him, he is mildly biased, but also hilarious and surprisingly less biased then any other.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal 01/04/2018 at 18:57

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I’m not finding it yet. Are you certain you spelled it correctly?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Herr Quattro - Has a 4-motion 01/04/2018 at 19:39

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Thanks for the tip. But beware American cable news: it’ll rot your brain.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/05/2018 at 09:07

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If nothing else, it’s pretty creative... It clearly it not in keeping with the spirit of the law, though.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/05/2018 at 13:00

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Agreed. Probably the first of many attempts by entities public and private to game the hastily conceived tax thing.